Let’s talk reference checks. I aim for 20 ‼️ reference calls per executive hire. When a candidate reaches late stages, I aim to speak with at least 10 (ideally 20) people who’ve worked with them. That includes former bosses, CEOs, peers, and direct reports. (A mix of references they provide and ones I find myself) I first ask: “When did you work together, and what was going on?” Then I let them talk for a bit. Then I start to butter them up a little bit because I want to help references talk about the bad stuff too. Next: “What was their biggest impact?” If the answer is cultural, I ask how it showed up in the numbers. If it’s numbers, I ask what cultural moves enabled them. From there: “When I talk to their biggest fans, what will I hear? What about their toughest critics?” Asking these questions together lets them celebrate the person while safely flagging possible weak spots. Then time for my favorite: “Think of the best leader you’ve ever worked with. That person is a 10 out of 10. Tell me the difference between this person and your 10/10.” What you hope to hear is, “They’re the 10 out of 10. This is the best person.” If you get that, you’re in a good spot. More often, you’ll hear something like, “They’re a 9. Really strong.” You start to get a little nervous when you hear “They’re a 7/10. Super solid.” That gives me more questions than answers. Great follow-ups to that are: - “What environments help them thrive? Where do they struggle?” - “Is there anything else I should know? Anything that would help us make this partnership a success?” Finally, and maybe most important: “Who else should I call?” You do this across 10 to 20 people, and you really have a good dossier on that person’s past experience. Then I go back to them and say, “Here’s what I heard, both where you’ll thrive at Zapier, and the areas where I still have questions.” Then you watch how they respond. Do they show a growth mindset and say, “Yep, that was me five years ago. Here’s how I’d approach it at Zapier”? Or do they brush it off? Hopefully you can pick up some tips and tricks from that approach to references. It’s a time-intensive process, for sure. But for executive roles, it’s worth it. What tips do you have for thorough references? – P.S. Is hiring top of mind for you? Our Global Head of Talent, Tracy St.Dic, is hosting a live AMA on AI for Talent Acquisition. We’ll have demos, stealable templates, and answers to your top AI hiring questions. August 20th. RSVP link in the comments below 👇
Love this approach Wade Foster. Thanks for laying this out.. Now I’m curious ... on the rare times you have been wrong after going this deep, what was the miss? Was it that the role shifted faster than expected, the culture changed, or the references just hadn’t seen them in the situations that ended up mattering most? Feels like those misses would be pure gold for refining the process even further.
Wade Foster these are great tips. The biggest challenge with refrenences is that most people treat as a check the box exercise. If you want to hire someone you tend to overlook what you hear of the reference calls. Understand why you are doing it is important: 1) Are you validating the hire? 2) Are you learning how you can best coach once hired? 3) Are you determining whether to hire?
That is psychotic ! And after 20 calls hopefully you know enough to do their job as well ! It’s a job not a marriage !
AMA: I'd like to read comments on this from women in leadership positions who do not work for Zapier (great company!) and hopefully Tracy St.Dic can answer this in the AMA. I’m curious: back-channel reference checks: how do you account for potential bias, especially for women and underrepresented leaders? Many women leaders have faced situations where someone with influence actively undermined them. In those cases, back-channeling risks amplifying a single negative (and possibly biased) voice instead of a full, balanced picture. For example: Public info shows Zapier currently has no women in SVP+ roles. If your goal is building an inclusive executive team, how do you ensure those “unofficial” references don’t unintentionally filter out strong, diverse candidates? I love the depth of your process and the questions you ask. I’m just wondering how this method ensures that the right feedback — not just the most easily accessible — makes it into your hiring decisions.
Ridiculous. At most companies, saying anything other than, "Contact HR" is a Code of Conduct violation. What decade are you living in?
Only 20? It's like you don't care about applicant quality at all. I shoot for at least 50 references for entry level positions, have to crack 100 for executive hires.
Co-founder & CEO at Zapier, YC & Mizzou Alum
1moRSVP for Tracy's AMA here ⬇️ bit.ly/4mnn5KA