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Nondetection can target "a willing creature or a place or an object no larger than 10 feet in any dimension"

Reading this to mean you can cast the spell on a 10 foot square space, what would happen if a Scrying was cast targeting a creature within said space?

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    \$\begingroup\$ This question is similar to: How does Nondetection affect Clairvoyance and Scrying?. If you believe it’s different, please edit the question, make it clear how it’s different and/or how the answers on that question are not helpful for your problem. \$\endgroup\$ Commented 2 days ago
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    \$\begingroup\$ I don't think the other question covers this situation, it was more focused on the protected person. Maybe it should have covered it since it was a general question, but clearly nobody thought about this niche case. I think this is fine as it's own question. \$\endgroup\$ Commented 2 days ago
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Mołot Good link, but not a dupe. That question says what if nondetection targets a creature and then you try to scry the area the creature is in. This question says what if nondetection targets an area and then you try to scry a creature in the area. In a sense, opposite questions. \$\endgroup\$ Commented 2 days ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ \begin {RulesLawyer}Now reading and reading the text of the spell: does the limitation of 10 feet in any dimension refer only to object or also to the place?\end {RulesLawyer} \$\endgroup\$ Commented 9 hours ago

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Nondetection won't stop the targeting

Nondetection, cast on an area, says (emphases mine):

For the duration, you hide a target that you touch from divination magic. The target can be a willing creature or a place or an object no larger than 10 feet in any dimension. The target can't be targeted by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors.

So Nondetection will protect the space in two ways. First, it will keep the space itself from being the target of a divination spell. Notably, the spell does not say that it protects creatures within the space from being targeted by divination spells (and compare this with, for example, Private Sanctum, which does).

Scrying, cast on a creature, says (emphases mine):

You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw...On a failed save, the spell creates an invisible sensor within 10 feet of the target. You can see and hear through the sensor as if you were there.

When the scrying is cast, it targets a creature, and not the area protected by the Nondetection, so Nondetection's first protection does not apply. Assuming the creature target fails its save, Scrying will create a magical sensor which can see the target itself 'as if you were there', and this will work regardless of whether the creature is in the area under the nondetection at the time.

Whether you can see the creature is open to interpretation

The second effect of nondetection keeps the space from being perceived through a magical scrying sensor. This will clearly keep you from observing the space itself by scrying. You will not be able to see the area under Nondetection.

But can you still see the creature itself while it is inside the protected area? This largely turns on whether or not the scried creature is part of the place. The rules don't give us a definition for "place", but the spell descriptions of clairvoyance, dimension door, and glyph of warding equate a "place" with a 'where', a location in a coordinate sense, rather than a more thematic 'scene' where the addition or subtraction of an object like a spoon makes it a different place.

One interpretation would then be that the targeted creature is not an inherent part of a place, at least from the perspective of the caster of scrying. The scrying would still allow you to see the target creature, even though the nondetection prevented you from seeing the place it was in. The creature is distinct from the place, and since the scrying spell says that you can see it, you can.

I imagine it would look like watching an actor in front of a green screen but before the CGI was overlain. You can see the person and their actions, hear them conversing and such, but the area around them is blank and you cannot see or hear what they are interacting with.

A different interpretation is that the entire location-bound area is under the effects of nondetection - it is a 'blind spot' for scrying sensors. When the targeted creature walks into the area it disappears from view, and reappears when it leaves. The creature may not be 'part' of the place in an essential sense, but while it is at the location it is still under the effects of the nondetection.

Unfortunately the rules do not clearly distinguish between these possibilities, so it is up to the DM to decide which interpretation they favor.

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    \$\begingroup\$ What is a place if it isn't the things in an area? Would it protect a spoon on a table in the place? Would it protect a spoon the was brought in after the casting? If so, why wouldn't it protect a person, and if not, what does it protect? \$\endgroup\$ Commented yesterday
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    \$\begingroup\$ This seems like one possible interpretation of the rules, but it also seems to me that it would be valid to treat Nondetection on an area like an opaque cloud that blocks the vision of scrying sensors into the area entirely. So it's a question of how the DM wants magic to work in their campaign world. (The rules argument would be that you can't see someone if they're in an area you can't see.) \$\endgroup\$ Commented yesterday
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    \$\begingroup\$ @PeterCordes Further reflection and examination of my thought process has revealed that I can't make a hard argument against that second interpretation. I have edited accordingly. \$\endgroup\$ Commented yesterday
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    \$\begingroup\$ Nice, thanks for saving me the trouble of writing a whole answer out of that comment. Interesting point that even if Nondetection prevents seeing the target of a scry when it's in the area, the sensor will follow them if they walk out of it during the 10 minute duration, since it doesn't block targeting so the spell still happens. \$\endgroup\$ Commented yesterday
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    \$\begingroup\$ Your new changes have got the +1 \$\endgroup\$ Commented 22 hours ago
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Nondetection does not stop the divination on creatures when it targets a place.

Nondetection spell has 3 eligible targets: a creature, an object or a place:

The target can be a willing creature or a place or an object no larger than 10 feet in any dimension.

When a place is chosen as target, it

[...] can’t be targeted by any Divination spell or perceived through magical scrying sensors.

Hence, one of the possible use of Scrying is disallowed:

Instead of targeting a creature, you can choose a location you have seen before as the target of this spell. When you do, the sensor appears at that location and doesn't move.

If Nondetection protected creatures inside the place affected by the spell, it would have specified it, as it happens in Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (emphasis mine):

  • [...]
  • Sensors created by Divination spells can’t appear inside the protected area or pass through the barrier at its perimeter.
  • Creatures in the area can’t be targeted by Divination spells.
  • [...]

Since Nondetection only extends its protection to its chosen target, nothing in its text prevents a creature inside the protected place from being targeted by Scrying or other Divination spells.

The same reasoning applies to objects, which can be targeted by divination magic: for example if a caster uses Locate Object for determine where the Macguffin of the Evil is located.

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    \$\begingroup\$ I agree with this answer more, with evidence from another spell. \$\endgroup\$ Commented 8 hours ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ Given the poor way target is often used I am not sure I would hang an answer on that word. Maybe you can target a creature in a nondetection zone, but still can't see it until they leave the protected area, but private sanctum would stop the targeting entirely. Different spells doing different things. Otherwise why protect a place if you aren't trying to protect the things in that place? \$\endgroup\$ Commented 8 hours ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ @justhalf Yes, I think that counterexamples work pretty well, even if some people don't like them. Still, I am surprised how bad these spell are written, but if it was not so, RPG.SE has no reason to exist! \$\endgroup\$ Commented 6 hours ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ When you target a creature with Scrying, you create a sensor that follows that creature, but can see things other than the creature "as if you were there". It is clear that the targeting and the spell effect are different things. Nondetection doesn't stop targeting, Private sanctum does - but knowing that doesn't tell us whether the effect of the spell (seeing through the sensor) is blocked by Nondetection. \$\endgroup\$ Commented 3 hours ago
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Kirt Maybe my title is not so clear: I reached your same conclusion: the creature affected by a Scrying spell can be detected inside the place subject to the Nondetection spell, since if Nondetection once cast on a location protected also the creatures inside such location would have said so. I imagine that the scried creature appears in a black void, and the Scrying sensor cannot see the location where the creature is, just as you depicted. \$\endgroup\$ Commented 40 mins ago

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