First Person Meets… Hal Lonas: Tell me when I am wrong

Matt Egan ( .802) Hello, hello, hello.

Welcome to First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in IT and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their firsts. I'm your host, Matt Egan, asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you find us.

And if you are an interesting person in IT, do let us know. You might be the next First Person. The next voice you will hear will be today's guest. He is Hal Lohnas.

Hal is a recognised innovator in cloud security and machine learning and a longstanding champion of automation technology, having worked in C-suite roles for multiple household names. Hal has also co-authored several patents and holds a degree in aeronautics and astronautics from MIT.

So, Hal is definitely one of the most interesting people in IT and we are delighted to have him as a guest on First Person. So, Hal, welcome. And first up, what's the first thing people should know about you? Hal Lonas (

.995) Thanks for having me, Matt. I'm excited to talk to you. You know, I guess the interesting thing about me is that I'm a nerd.

And that's nice way of saying that, you know, I'm a technologist and very interested in technology and actually in a lot of different areas. And so I think maybe that's the one key thing to know about me. Matt Egan ( .76) Yeah.

Matt Egan (

.934) Well, it's a cool thing to know about you. And I think one of the great things about living through the industrial revolution we are living through is that being a nerd is a good thing these days, which maybe it wasn't back when I was at school.

I don't know. So I'm very excited to have this conversation with you, a fellow nerd. So our first section is what we call First Things First. And this is where we get to know about our guests by understanding some of their first times.

So I'm really interested to ask you about this, actually. Could you tell us something about your first job in this industry? Hal Lonas (

.093) Yeah, well, it goes way, way back. I mean, you know, I took a IT job, kind of a computer programming job while I was still in school. you know, small desktop computers were just becoming a big thing back then.

So the format was changing from kind of mainframes and even like dial-up programming to programming locally and on desktop computers. And that was my first job. I was still in school and it was kind of a transition time for IT and computer programming and computers in general.

I you know way way back when Matt Egan (

.695) So a very kind of exciting time to be in this industry actually, as it has continued to be. But I wonder how, what was the impetus that made you want to take that job? was this something, was this a hobby for you?

Or was it like, did you get from being in school to being in school and working in IT at that Hal Lonas ( .191) Yeah, good question.

I did a co-op when I was in school still, and I went to work for Northrop Aircraft for half a year in sunny Los Angeles. it was interesting. That was my educational background.

But I found out that the aircraft industry and aerospace are very, very actually slow moving compared to other things out there. And then I took this job, and I found out just how fast and Matt Egan ( .871) Thank Hal Lonas (

.193) and how quickly the kind of local programming or computer programming was working on desktops and how quickly your work could get out to users and just turn around time and the feedback was so much faster.

And that kind of got me excited about switching from aerospace into something else that was kind of more, know, quicker feedback and a bigger impact on what you were doing than possibly the aerospace industry. Matt Egan ( .286) Sure.

Hal Lonas (

.431) I guess I was young and impatient at the time too, which helped me sort of make the jump.

that was kind of my first taste of that and really started prompting me to change direction and really emphasize more of a kind computer science-y thing than a traditional aerospace career. Matt Egan ( .518) Yeah.

Matt Egan (

.774) Interesting and interesting, you know, from our perspective, we hear a lot where folks say one of the things they love about particularly coding actually is that you do a thing and then you can see the impact immediately. Like it's almost real time feedback.

So, so would you say that was kind of the first time you thought, yeah, this is it. This is the industry for me and this is where I'm going to stay kind of thing. Hal Lonas (

.505) Yeah, yeah, totally true. you know, I think early in my career, it was all about sort of the feedback, you know, the gratification you get from making a change to a computer program or creating something and feeling that self satisfaction of seeing something out there.

And then over time transition from, you know, kind of that just kind of, you know, jolt or kick you get from writing a computer program to actually making a business impact on people. Matt Egan ( .18) Yes.

Hal Lonas (

.399) what customers and people and your peers and seeing all those effects and kind of making an impact there. So I think, you know, I saw that transition in my career as well. And that's also been, you know, very fun and very gratifying. Matt Egan (

.377) Yeah, it's something, you know, my own background was consumer technology journalism and then laterally working in the enterprise. And it's amazing how many people within enterprise software and products like say something similar, like which is you're able to make a difference on such a scale.

presumably, you know, you were pretty good at this, right? You must have found, I know it's a hard thing to deal with, but did you find success pretty much straight away, would you say? Hal Lonas (

.697) I mean, it took me a while to kind of learn the ropes and figure out how things work.

And one of the things that I found early on that I was really good at was getting my head around like kind of a large body of code and keeping it in my head. And computer programmers talk about being in the zone.

And I was really good at that. At the end of it, I kind of shut out the external inputs and really focus and kind of get into that flow state of where you're creating something and kind of have it all in your head.

And I was actually really good at that. Matt Egan ( .979) Yeah.

Yeah. Hal Lonas (

.337) And the other thing I found was that was good at not only taking on someone else's code, actually sort of almost like reading their mind and figuring out kind of what they were thinking when they created it.

And so you get kind of good at almost understanding the psychology of who the writer was and why they did what they did.

And you get to a certain point and you you've probably seen this as you, you know, once you've seen several defects in the code and several bugs, you get to almost kind of guess the next one, you know, or go. Matt Egan ( .369) Right.

Hal Lonas (

.575) and preemptively fix things. I feel like I was good at that and enjoyed it quite a bit. Matt Egan (

.701) And then what's interesting, many things are interesting about your sort career progression, but you've mapped that to the business side, right? To the product side, to being able to solve problems that really matter to businesses.

So I wonder if you could tell us something about that, because what you're describing, which sounds wonderful, this kind of flow state of really unpicking problems in code. But alongside that, you've got to be able to actually apply… that to create solutions, right?

And was that something that came naturally or something that you developed over time or if you could just speak to that a little bit. Hal Lonas (

.255) Yeah, you know, coming up through and I mentioned how you kind of transition from sort of, you know, that gratification that comes from creating a neat computer program, that kind of the pure, pure nerd point of view, you know, to what's your business aspect and how do you work with businesses, either create a business or work with a business to build value.

And one of the big, you know, kind of turning points in my career was I did a stint with ADP, the payroll people.

And I had a great boss there that really helped me make the transition from kind of the pure nerd or the pure software creator point of view to the business point of view.

he really helped me connect with the business and understand what the software engineers do and the engineering department can really make a big change for the business and how it's done and the connection with users and the ability to create Matt Egan ( .012) Yes.

Hal Lonas (

.489) kind of software that delights the end user, whoever they are, and really connect that. So that was a big, big turning point in my career. Matt Egan ( .577) Sure.

Thank you. Because first great boss is one of the questions we always like to ask and what you learn from them.

And I don't think I've heard that before described as almost the ability to navigate the whole organization and understand where your piece fits in, which is advice, I'm sure, similar to you. I've always given to people who are ambitious to get on.

It's like master what you're doing, but then understand how it fits in with the rest of the business. and then you can kind of, guess, do it more effectively. And this first great boss of yours was able to kind of ignite that in you, I suppose.

Hal Lonas (

.901) Absolutely, you know, we would go for walks almost every day. He'd say, let's just go for a walk and we would step outside and go for a five or 10 or 15 minute walk and just have a chat. And it was, you know, really great.

I mean, he took the time to spend with me and wanted to do something active and go outside and walk around. And we had these great chats about, you know, the business and what did I think about this and that and what was he thinking?

And yeah, it was really great. He was just a great boss. Matt Egan ( .441) Nice.

Matt Egan (

.909) And so important and actually something we have to think about really carefully in a remote and hybrid working world, right, is you don't, you know, I certainly benefited from mentors in that space.

In my own career in a different discipline, we don't have that ability to go for a walk often. So I do think that's a problem we have to think about solving in modern workplace really. Hal Lonas (

.199) Yeah, you know, later on, I had another really good boss, you know, that kind of taught me the value of face to face. And we were in a distributed business. Business had done some acquisition and there were some contentious feelings among the different sort of parties involved.

And, and, you know, I got put into a leadership position at some point. And that boss said, I want you guys to get together every month and meet. And we were really distributed. I mean, we had people on the West coast of the U.S.

We had people in Colorado. Matt Egan ( .73) Mm-hmm.

Hal Lonas (

.141) We had people in the UK in a little town called Derby. And this boss said, get together. And he said, I don't care what it costs, where you go. I said, know, I jokingly said Tahiti. And he said, whatever it takes, you get together.

The three parts of the business, he called us the three amigos and said, I want the three amigos to get together and really hash it out and get to a point where you appreciate each other, trust each other, get to know each other.

And this was pre-COVID, but he really valued face to face. And I got to say, kind of Matt Egan ( .648) Okay Hal Lonas (

.401) kind of built that into me as well. So another kind of really good lesson I've learned along the way. Matt Egan ( .581) Yeah, really important.

And I'm going to bet that you didn't meet in Derby all that often, given the options. You don't have to comment on that. don't have to comment on that. Yeah. OK, amazing.

And so I suppose you've kind of filled in some of the blanks here, but I'm really interested in those first promotions, those job role changes, because you've done so many things. Like, how does one get from there to where you are today? What's the path look like?

Hal Lonas ( .081) No comment.

Hal Lonas (

.597) Yeah, one of the other great lessons I learned was, you know, at one point I inherited some code in a product and it was troubled.

you know, we had big customers, enterprise customers that were expecting delivery and this code base was buggy and, you know, I took responsibility for it. I think I was the only one that didn't take a step backward or something. you know, and.

I think at some point in your career, you've you realize that you you've got to take ownership of something and really take responsibility.

And that was that that kind of lesson for me at that point was you just have to kind of kind of suck it up and and and and earn your stripes or whatever that you know, the thing you want and and you know, that was that point for me where I think you do a really hard thing and you come out of it on the other side having succeeded and and the business looks at you and says like, Matt Egan ( .154) Yeah.

Hal Lonas (

.315) while there's a person who we can trust in and believe to go do something. And it's hard. You have to put in extra hours and maybe travel a little bit and make some sacrifices.

But when you do that, you really understand how a business can turn or pivot based on that extra effort you put in. So for me, again, a good lesson to learn. Matt Egan ( .767) Sure.

And so you then moved on through the ranks kind of thing with the one organization and then, you you've worked for multiple different organizations people would have heard of. What's been the impetus for those changes?

Like just seeking the next interesting project or, know, kind of what's the motivation there? Hal Lonas (

.705) Interesting projects, interesting technology, transformative businesses. I think that's all been things I've looked up for my career. I've done a lot in the last 20 or so years in cybersecurity and kind of network and then AI and ML is applied to projects, a lot of automation.

Those things really get me interested. It tends to be kind of cutting edge stuff and time and time again and that part of it's fun.

You know, got to say as a technologist or a nerd, one of the fun things about kind of having that, you know, as an interest is that it's, you're in a really dynamic part of what's going on in technology, right? So it's always changing. It's always exciting.

It's always new. And so that keeps you fresh, keeps me fresh in terms of, I love learning new things, you know, and I think, you know, if you're excited about that and love to learn new things, then kind of cutting edge talk. Matt Egan (

.673) Yeah, yeah, for sure. Hal Lonas (

.237) Technology is a good place to be. You got to be willing to learn though and learn new tricks all the time. And as long as you're willing to do that, then I think you can have a really fun career and do meaningful things.

Matt Egan ( .65) Yeah, definitely.

And not fear change kind of thing. you know, working in the industry I work in, media publishing, it has been constant churn for the past 30 years in which it's been my industry.

And I often feel grateful that it's always been covering technology RIT because… Because to your point you are right there at the forefront of everything that happens and if in blindsides you because it's right there in front of you, right?

You just keep on dealing with the next thing and trying to think, you know, two steps ahead. Hal, this is an interesting conversation. I'm really enjoying myself, but it's too good, right?

So we need to move to section two, which is our first fails because we're not only here for the good stuff and so far everything's been disappointingly successful for you.

So I wonder if you could tell us if you would something about the first big mistake that comes to mind when I ask you that question. Hal Lonas (

.775) Yeah, I think, you know, as a leader, and as you get into, you know, more and more responsibility in your career, like, one thing I've tried to do is, is, you know, not only delegate, but but trust people and let them do that, you know, be creative and not be a micromanager.

And I think that sometimes the trick is knowing when to step back in, in a way and be a micromanager. And in certain cases, and, you know, I I definitely had a very painful experience one time where I delegated a lot and let this team run.

I thought, well, they know the details and I'm not going to interfere. And they're picking technology and doing things and OK, and kind of let it run.

And even though I had a gut kind of instinct feeling that it wasn't going in good direction, I just let it go too long. And by the time I did step in, there had been some kind of messiness and some failure in terms of execution.

And then you've got kind of a cleanup job to do and going and kind of fixing things.

And I think the learning from that over time was that as you gain experience, you have to kind of trust your gut and say, when do I let people sort of run and delegate and trust, you know? But there's always the famous like trust but verify, right?

So you've got to step back in and look periodically. then you've got to, sometimes you just have to. kind of roll up your sleeves and wade back in and say, hey, this just needs fixing or needs some correction.

And, you know, it's not fun, but you got to do it. And so I think I learned by like kind of being two hands off sometimes it's not the right approach. Matt Egan (

.469) Yeah, with the best intentions, right? But yeah, I think that such a fine line between giving people the opportunity to succeed, but also being accountable as a leader. And I think that's something we all just have to make judgment calls on all day, every day.

And a boss said to me years ago, know, the conversation you don't want to have is a conversation you have to have. And sometimes that's the thing. People do… Hal Lonas ( .235) Yeah.

Matt Egan (

.017) need and want a level of oversight that maybe they don't instinctively feel they need and want. You're the boss, you're accountable kind of thing. So thank you for sharing that.

And I guess along a related note, being at the cutting edge the whole time, I'm sure you will have had experiences like this. But one of the questions we like to ask is the first time you realise something that you knew might actually be wrong.

I wonder if you had any kind of thoughts around that? Hal Lonas (

.271) Yeah, I mean, actually, that happens a lot.

mean, I think you, you know, when you whenever you're going into a complicated area, maybe you don't fully understand it, especially early, early on, you know, you, I build mental models of how I think things work, right, and to kind of get through and, and then I think you've got to, like, I'm always trying to strike the strike the right balance of, okay, I understand how this works, I want to get in, I want to contribute, make sure I understand it.

But Matt Egan ( .119) Yeah.

Hal Lonas (

.553) you got to be willing to say like, if I if I weighed into something like that, then maybe certain aspects of what I'm thinking are wrong.

And I actually spend a lot of time like telling like, my staff now or people that report to me saying like, hey, you know, just tell me if I'm wrong.

I'd rather know it sooner rather than don't just nod along and say, Oh, the boss is crazy or something. You know, tell me if I'm wrong, because I want to I want to fail fast personally and be wrong sooner. And then figure it out.

And I think Matt Egan ( .115) Yeah.

Yeah. Hal Lonas (

.451) Technology humbles you right it moves so fast and if you're not humble and willing to learn You also kind of outdate yourself pretty quickly because you get you get too rigid and get you set in your ways And then you just can't move along so I've tried to stay flexible and sort of personally agile about my approach and what I'm learning and Just just keep learning every day Matt Egan (

.811) Yeah, it's like the thing of there being no stupid questions, right? The stupid thing is not to ask the question.

And I think you said it right at the outset when you described yourself as a nerd, which is if the thing for you is the technology and you're interested and excited by the technology, you almost actively seek to be wrong because you've learned something, right?

And that's part of the fun of it. Amazing how really enjoying this conversation. I want to move on now to section three, which we call Quick Fire Firsts. And this is where we want to get to know you beyond your professional vignette.

And we do that by using our own patented random question generator. So please, Hal, if you wouldn't mind, you give me a number between 1 and 15? Hal Lonas ( .492) let's go for 13.

Matt Egan (

.985) number 13, unlucky for some. Could you tell us something about the first concert you can remember attending? Hal Lonas (

.785) Yeah, I went to Eagles concert in in the in the old Boston Garden when I was in school in Boston and that I got a phenomenal deal on tickets with some of my fraternity brothers and we went to the see Boston play live in Boston, which was cool.

I mean, sorry, the Eagles play live in Boston and and these tickets like phenomenal price, you know, how in the world are we getting to see the Eagles and it turned out we were behind a concrete college. Matt Egan ( .277) there you go.

Matt Egan ( .269) Yeah.

Matt Egan ( .375) Yeah.

Hal Lonas (

.809) So hence the great deal on the tickets, but but still memorable nonetheless Matt Egan ( .589) Yeah.

So you couldn't see, but you could hear. It's amazing. It doesn't matter how many times we ask that question, Hal. No one ever says anything that isn't cool. So go and see the Eagles in the Boston Card. That's a pretty cool gig. Go on.

Let's go for one more. Go on. Hal Lonas (

.773) I did follow that up, but just one more, I just follow up many years later, recently by seeing them in the sphere in Las Vegas. So kind of a complete circle or a complete sphere to see the Eagles again. anyways, yeah.

Matt Egan ( .903) There you go.

Yeah. Matt Egan (

.129) I think it's very cool how the Eagles have kind of gone in and out of fashion over the years, right? And then there was the documentary of year, which kind of just showed them in the studio harmonizing.

And it was like, right, like, because I don't believe in guilty pleasures, right? I think you like things that you like and like, legitimate geniuses, the Eagles, right? So being able to be able to see them right back there and then come up to date. That's pretty cool.

Let's go for another one. So could you please pick another number between one and 15? Hal Lonas ( .696) Yeah.

Hal Lonas (

.491) Let's go for number four. Matt Egan (

.177) Number four, tell us if you can something about the first home you can remember, like the first place you grew up. Hal Lonas (

.537) yeah, I grew up in Canton, Ohio, football Hall of Fame. football, a very big thing in Canton, Ohio. But yeah, I grew up in the Midwest. And I think actually, Ohio is probably underrated. a very dynamic state.

think there's a lot of good innovation that happens there in a kind of a Midwestern state. And I learned to kind of love hate relationship with the weather and the seasons and Matt Egan ( .243) There you go.

Matt Egan ( .943) Mm-hmm.

Matt Egan ( .269) Yes.

Hal Lonas ( .241) and all that.

I still have family back there. go back to Ohio. But yeah, Canton, Ohio was home. And we were allowed to back in the day, we were allowed to roam, my mom would kick us out of the house in the morning and say, back till the streetlights come on.

And we were out and about. So we were just free agents and have a lot of fun growing up in Ohio. Matt Egan ( .127) Yeah.

Matt Egan (

.037) You haven't got your gold jacket just yet, it's from you said that as you were saying that, I was going to say the phrase, don't come back till the streetlights come on, because that was my experience growing up in West Yorkshire in England in the 70s and 80s was, yeah, in the morning, out you go, don't come back until the streetlights come on.

Quite a Proustian phrase, really. Wonderful. Thank you so much. I can't believe I'm saying this, Hal, but we are moving into the final part of our interview. Hal Lonas ( .857) Exactly, Yep.

Matt Egan (

.647) But I'm really interested to ask you, what is the first piece of advice you would give to someone who is just starting out? Hal Lonas (

.227) Well, I think I mentioned some of my key values, which are like, you know, really own the code or own what you're doing. If you're a software engineer, own the code. If you're a technologist, own what you're doing.

I think understand how it connects to business so that you'll make yourself so valuable. No one will ever can't imagine life without you wherever you're working or whatever you're doing. I think that's really important. And then interpersonal relations.

You know, I think the things I learned about face-to-face and really understanding your team, you know, and in a 360 kind of way. Like your boss or whoever you report to, your peers and how you interact with them.

And then if you're fortunate enough to have people report to you, make sure that, you know, you take good care of them and help them grow in their career and also be successful. So I think, you know, those are kind of key elements for me. Matt Egan (

.338) Yeah, really important and really kind of transferable bits of advice, right? Do the work, have the skills, know what it is that you can bring to the business.

As we discussed earlier, understand how that supports the business's overall mission and goals and then how you kind of fit into it. And the human side of it is so important, right? Like, you know, we spend a lot of time with our colleagues.

So understanding, empathetically, how to kind of work. well, but also beyond that, like kind of build friendships and partnerships. Such an important part of the workplace. And I can't see that ever changing, really. Hal, you've done so many different things.

I wonder what is the kind of first project or first achievement that you would tell people about? If you put on the spot, right, you've got to talk about one thing you've done. You know, what is the masterpiece? What is the thing that you would like reach for?

Hal Lonas (

.731) Well, from a career standpoint, think doing a startup was transformative for me. You know, when you really kind of let go of, you know, kind of a guaranteed paycheck and some of the security and things that come with that, doing a startup is really transformative and fun.

It's especially transformative and fun, like… many years later. I think it's one of those things like when you're in it, it's very, very hard.

But looking back, it was super valuable experience for me and just made a big difference in sort of my outlook on a lot of things like career and life and work. So that was really big for me and yeah, very transformative. Matt Egan ( .529) Yeah.

Yeah. Matt Egan (

.855) So you and I guess after that, you sort of must feel like you can do anything, right? Because if you've stood up a business all on its own, what's left to be scared of kind of thing. Hal Lonas (

.873) It does make you feel like that you draw on that, I think, experience and strength like that the rest of your time and you think like, it gives you such confidence that you can go do that.

And, and, and, know, I think too, that, you know, some, some businesses are more successful than others, you know, like from a, from a, you know, sales revenue perspective, but, definitely like that feeling of creating something was something important to me and, Matt Egan ( .192) Mm-hmm.

Hal Lonas (

.693) something you can look back on and draw from, you forever. Matt Egan ( .621) Amazing.

Hal, I'm afraid this is our last question. I can't believe I'm saying this. I feel like could speak to you for hours. But I wanted to ask what's next for you? Like what's kind of coming up?

Because I know you're very busy right now with your current project and where do you see the next few years going for you? Hal Lonas (

.135) Yeah, you know, I'm in such an interesting spot now with truly you and identity verification. It's a very, very, again, like going back to the theme of very rapidly changing and, and always changing area.

And so for me, like, kind of, you know, and I think as a technologist, you also look forward and try to predict the future a little bit all the time.

And I just think, you know, for me, I look forward to like, wow, what's going to happen in this industry. And you look at all the dynamic things that are going on all the time and Matt Egan ( .767) Mm-hmm.

Hal Lonas (

.289) just happy to be part of it and do that little bit of anticipation on what's coming next. And yes, for me, think it's always what's just around the corner and trying to predict that.

if you get that right, maybe 51 % of the time, that's great thing and very satisfying. And there's things that none of us can anticipate or get right, but certainly that ability and that part of the job description where you're Matt Egan ( .765) Yeah.

Hal Lonas (

.321) asked to look forward, you know, is very, very fun and just very gratifying. Matt Egan (

.533) Yeah, it definitely feels like you found the right industry and maybe the industry found the right person in you Hal.

So my sincere thanks to Hal Lownas and thanks for watching or listening to First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in IT and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their firsts.

I have been your host, Egan, asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you find us. And if you are an interesting person in IT, do let us know. You might be the next First Person. But I have to sign off by saying my sincere thanks to Hal.

So thank you, Hal Lownas and goodbye. Hal Lonas ( .157) Thank you, Matt.