If Trump is reelected, the independence of federal agencies could be at risk
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
If Donald Trump should return to office, some conservatives are ready. They're preparing ways that he could reshape the federal government. The leading Republican candidate has already embraced one idea, which he phrases this way.
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DONALD TRUMP: I will totally obliterate the deep state. We will obliterate...
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TRUMP: ...The deep state. And we know who they are. I know exactly who they are.
INSKEEP: That's Trump speaking at a rally in June, though it could have been from many past speeches. He talks often of the deep state, generally meaning whatever part of the federal government that frustrates him at the moment. Lately, that includes the special counsel who is prosecuting him. Some conservatives have been working to turn that rhetorical talking point into concrete policy. They have long-standing goals to cut back on what they call the administrative state. Russell Vought served as Trump's budget director and now runs a think tank that is aiming to reshape the government.
RUSSELL VOUGHT: The notion that career civil servants are just kind of working away expertly and don't have a political agenda is not true.
INSKEEP: Vought contends that the permanent employees of federal agencies are not responsive enough to the president's demands. He says the next president could reclassify the status of federal employees so that they would be easier to fire.
Should civil servants be personally loyal to the president?
VOUGHT: Civil servants should be oriented to accomplishing the agenda of a president, not the office of the president, not their institutions, Office of Management Budget or the EPA or Department of Justice. They should be working for the agenda of a president that gets elected by voters. And that is not the case.
INSKEEP: Now, this is all a little complicated, but it gets to a basic question. Who decides what the government should do in a democracy? We called up an expert on these matters, Jane Manners of Temple University. And she told us the administrative state is real - up to a point.
JANE MANNERS: People who refer to the administrative state are generally referring to independent agencies.
INSKEEP: Congress created them, and the president usually appoints their leaders, but they have some insulation from politics. We hear about some of these agencies in the news all the time. The FCC, for example, regulates broadcast communications. The FEC oversees election spending. The SEC regulates stock trading. And conservatives who dislike regulation have gradually included other agencies in their definition.
MANNERS: It's become kind of flabbier over time.
INSKEEP: The Supreme Court chief justice recently referred to the administrative state in a ruling against the Education Department.
MANNERS: The term is often used by those on the right who are criticizing what they see as bloat and inefficiency and wastefulness and intrusiveness in the lives of ordinary Americans through unnecessary regulation, bureaucracy, etc.
INSKEEP: To its critics, the administrative state grew even larger in the 1970s after scandals drove President Richard Nixon from power.
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RICHARD NIXON: Therefore, I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow.
INSKEEP: The Nixon scandals revealed the abuse of law enforcement and intelligence agencies across multiple administrations of both parties. And this led to changes in both law and custom, calling on each president to keep hands off some agencies. Jane Manners of Temple University says conservatives see that as undemocratic, although she does not.
MANNERS: I mean, we have these conversations regularly about the nine justices on the Supreme Court. And yet, we still believe strongly in this country that federal judges should have lifetime tenure. The reason we believe that is, we believe that this insulation from political influence does contribute to a more fair, more just opinion that draws on the relevant expertise when necessary.
INSKEEP: Haven't a lot of presidents expressed frustration at their difficulty in moving the bureaucracy in the direction they would like it to go?
MANNERS: Yes, this is not isolated to one party. It's a long-term frustration. And yet it's a frustration, its defenders would say, that is essential to make sure that the executive branch has institutional knowledge, and that it has career civil servants who are there for reasons other than partisan favor, that they have more of a sense of camaraderie and commitment to the role.
INSKEEP: Now, what Jane Manners just described, the purpose of a civil service, is what Russell Vought, Trump's former budget director, disapproves.
VOUGHT: The notion of an independent agency - whether that's a flat-out independent agency like the FCC or a agency that has parts of it that view itself as independent, like the Department of Justice - we're planting a flag and saying we reject that notion completely.
INSKEEP: You mentioned the Justice Department. Of course, the president already nominates and gives directions, policy directions, to whoever may be attorney general. Do you think the president also should be able to direct the outcomes of specific criminal investigations?
VOUGHT: Well, he certainly should be able to identify his priorities with regard to what the Department of Justice is pursuing and ensuring that the agenda that he ran on can be executed within the Department of Justice.
INSKEEP: All this leads to a bottom-line question, which we put to Vought. Should the president have the power to order the Justice Department to drop its own indictment of him? Here's how he answered.
VOUGHT: I think he has the power to expect that when he brings in an administration that, that administration is not weaponized against him.
INSKEEP: What about the yes-no question? Does President Trump, if he's reelected, have the power to do that?
VOUGHT: The president has a lot of power to do a lot of things. That doesn't mean that he, exercising from a standpoint of wisdom, does those things.
INSKEEP: I am trying to interpret because you haven't said yes or no. It sounds like you're saying that, yes, Donald Trump would have that power, although it might be unwise. Is that your answer?
VOUGHT: I am suggesting that the president has the authority under the Constitution to conduct law enforcement. I am not predicting that a president that is exercising those authorities is going to make unwise decisions and unwise instructions to his appointees to be able to make partisan decisions that the American people who put him into office would find offensive or odious. And I think that is a complicated answer to your question.
INSKEEP: So we could trust Donald Trump not to do that?
VOUGHT: Yes, I think you can absolutely trust Donald Trump not to do that.
INSKEEP: Still, the prospect of Trump ending his prosecution has become part of the conversation. Trump himself has alleged that he faces a purely political prosecution, as he said recently at an event in Iowa.
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TRUMP: And by the way, if I weren't running, I would have nobody coming after me.
INSKEEP: At that same Iowa event, another Republican candidate, Will Hurd, said Trump has the story wrong. He's not being prosecuted because he's running, it's the other way around.
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WILL HURD: Donald Trump is running to stay out of prison. And if we elect...
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INSKEEP: Some of the audience booed. But even some of Trump's Republican rivals have promised that if they are elected, they'd keep him out of prison, too.
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